by means of agitation-they carried the reform bill by means of agitation-and we are now paying the fruits of their arts. All this chartism is but the effect of their conduct; and it is evident, that from those who have caused the evil, you cannot expect the remedy. We ought to dismiss them, and seek others who, never having excited the people to turbulence, will command the confidence of the country."

He did not know whether he had stated it correctly, but this as nearly as he could collect was the substance of what had been urged by the hon. gentleman opposite. He might follow the example of his hon. friend (the judge-advocate (Sir G. Grey) in his most noble and eloquent speech, and content himself with asserting that this agitation belonged principally to the government of lord Grey. Of that go vernment the noble lord, the member for Lancashire (lord Stanley) and the right hon. member for Pembroke (sir James Graham), were members.

If men, continued the right hon. gentleman, were to be deemed disqualified for places in the councils of their sovereign, because they exerted themselves to carry the reform bill, because they appealed to the people to support that bill, because they employed means, certainly lying within the verge of the law, but as certainly also within the confines of prudence, then, he contended, no men in this empire were more completely disqualified for office than the noble lord and the right hon. baronet.

He altogether denied the assertion which he had heard over and over again that a government which countenanced, or did not discountenance, agitation would

not punish rebellion. There might be some similarity in the simple act between the man who bled, and the man who stabbed, but was there no difference in the nature of the action? He, Mr. Macaulay, did not believe there had been one instance of justifiable insurrection in this country for a century and a half. On the other hand, he held agitation to be essential, not only to the obtaining of good and just measures, but to the existence of a free government itself. If they chose to adopt the principle of bishop Horsley, that the people have nothing to do with the laws but to obey them, then indeed they might deprecate agitation; but in a free country, and under a free government, their deprecation was vain and untenable.

In Russia, if a man can obtain an audience of the emperor Nicholas or count Nesselrode, and can produce proof that certain views he entertains are sound, certain plans he proposes would be attended with practical benefit, then indeed without agitation, without public discussion, with a single stroke of the pen, a great and important change is at once effected. Not so in this country. Here the people must be appealed to-the public voice must be consulted. In saying this he did not defend one party alone he was defending alike both the great parties in the House. Had they not heard of agitation against the catholic claims? Was there no agitation against the poor-law? Had there been no agitation for education, or against the catholic privy councillors? But to pass from questions about which a difference of opinion might fairly exist to a measure upon which all must agree,—a measure of the proudest, grandest

nature that ever received the sanction of the legislature, the abolition of the slave-trade, which, he contended, never would have been carried without agitation.

The following were the concluding passages of the right hon. gentleman's speech:

"I believe, that if with the best and purest intentions, the right hon. baronet were to undertake the government of this country, he would find that it was very easy to lose the confidence of the party which raised him to power, but very difficult indeed to gain that which the present government happily possessed-the confidence of the people of Ireland. It is upon these grounds, and principally upon the question of Ireland that I should be inclined to rest the case of the present ministry.

"Would to God that I were speaking to an audience that would judge this great controversy fairly, with an unbiassed mind, and as it will be judged by future agesthe passions which inflame usthe sophistries which delude us will not last for ever.

The paroxysms of faction have their appointed season, even the madness of fanaticism is but for a daythe time is coming when our conflicts will be to others as the conflicts of our forefathers are to us; when our priests who convulse the state our politicians who make a stalking horse of the church, will be no more than the Harleys and Sacheverells of a by-gone day; and when will be told, in a language very different from that which now draws forth applause at Exeter-hall, the story of these troubled years.

"Then it will be said that there was a portion of the empire which presented a striking contrast to the

"Whether the result of this debate will be victory or defeat I know not; but I know that there are defeats not less glorious than even victory itself; and yet, I have seen and shared in some glorious victories. Those were proud and happy days, when, amidst the praises and blessings of millions, my noble Friend (lord John Russell) led us on in the great struggle for the reform bill-when hundreds waited around our doors till sunrise to hear the tidings of our success-and when the great cities of the empire poured forth their populations on the highways to meet the mails that were bringing from the capital the tidings whether the battle of the people were lost or won.

"Those days were such as my noble Friend cannot hope to see again. Two such triumphs would be too much for one life. But, perhaps, there still awaits him a less pleasing, a less exhilarating, but not a less honourable task, the task of contending against superior numbers, through years of discomfiture, to maintain those civil liberties-those rights of conscience which are inseparably associated with the name of his illustrious

house. At his side will not be wanting men who against all odds, and through all the turns of fortune, amidst evil days and evil tongues, will defend to the last, with unabated spirit, the noble principles of Milton and Locke.

"He may be driven from office -he may be doomed to a life of opposition-he may be made the mark for all the rancour of sects— he may be exposed to the fury of a Laud on the one side, and to the

fanaticism of a Praise-God Bare

bones on the other-but a portion of the praise which we bestow on the old martyrs and champions of freedom will not be refused by posterity to those who have, in these our days, endeavoured to bind together in real union, sects and races, too long hostile to each other, and to efface, by the mild influence of a parental government, the fearful traces which have been left by the misrule of ages.

This speech met with severe censure from viscount Powerscourt, who said it was a new and most ominous thing, for a member of the cabinet to come down to that House, and boldly and openly declare, that he upheld and admired that system of agitation, to which the country owed all the evils it was now labouring under. Mr. Fox Maule in the course of an able and argumentative speech complained of sir J. Graham having made the following observation: that the people of Scotland in sending as their representatives to this house those who were required to have no property qualification, had sent members who were inferior in talent, in integrity, and prudence, to those who came from other parts of the empire.

If he (Mr. F. Maule) were

right in supposing this to be the meaning of the right hon. baronet's language, then he must say, that a more gratuitous insult was never offered to the representatives of the people of Scotland, and he confessed that he little expected, that the right hon. baronet, whom he had seen riding

"From Netherby-gate to Branxholm braes"

other side of the border, and who in order to visit his friends on the congratulate them— so far stretched his panegyric as to

"On victories won in border frays, Or his own clan in former days would have gone so far as to say, that the representatives of the people of Scotland were, from their want of qualification, inferior to the members returned to the house. possessing a property qualification.

The right hon. baronet might rely upon it, that this speech of his would cross the border, and that no raid of any of his ancestors ever created more indignation than would be aroused in Scotland by his speech of last night.

Mr. Fox Maule then went on to shew the great reforms which the government brought about in criminal law. In 1832, his hon. friend, Mr. Ewart, then member for Liverpool, with the assistance of government, brought in his bills for the abolition of the punishment of death for cattle stealing, horse and sheep stealing, larceny in a dwelling house, coining, and certain cases of forgery. In 1833, the bill for abolishing death was brought in.-In 1834, that for abolishing capital punishment for returning from transportation.-In 1835, the offence of stealing letters by servants of the post-office, was relieved from the same penal

ty; and in 1837, his noble friend (Lord J. Russell) then at the head of the home department, brought in those acts by which he has raised an imperishable monument to his ability and humanity. In these acts are repealed the remaining laws inflicting capital punishment, except in six cases of very rare occurrence. However a short statement of facts would prove more than any arguments in support of his proposition, that the liberal party had done much more to ameliorate the criminal laws than the tory government which preceded it. In 1818, the convictions were 1,254, and the executions 97. In 1828, there were 1,165 convictions and 59 executions; and in 1838, after the laborious efforts of the liberal party, the convictions were but 116, and the executions only 6.

Mr. Lascelles said, that the motion before the House was one which should have his most cordial support, as he did not think the government were in a position to carry on the affairs of the country; for the lords were against them, their hands were tied, they were much more incapable of carrying out measures of progressive reform than his right hon. friend and the party by whom he was supported.

Mr. Handley observed, that the reform government boldly grap pled with the giant evil which their predecessors had shrunk from contending with, and introduced, despite of all unpopularity, the poor-law amendment act, which had read to the labourers a great moral lesson, that they must depend upon their own exertions, and the value of a good character; its results were that the best men now got the best wages, and the

poor-rates had diminished to an incredible extent.

Mr. Sidney Herbert said, it was matter of rather curious enquiry how ministers obtained their precarious support, and what were the motives that induced many of those who occasionally supported them to lend them their votes. The question might be thus solved:

There was a large party in the house which was an extreme party, and the individuals of that party were well aware that to obtain their demands it was better to have a weak government rather than a strong one. The support these hon. members gave the go. vernment, must, in the present case, be taken to evidence their conviction of the weakness of government. When ministers were pressed, they must resort to these persons of whom one of them with a plain hard-hitting wit peculiar to him, had aptly said, that he knew the present government was made of squeezable materials, and, therefore, he stuck to it.

Mr. Ward gave it as his opinion, that for the radical party in the House, there could be no more complete justification for the vote they were about to give, than the speech delivered on the previous night by the right hon. baronet (sir James Graham), who had told them what they had to expect from the two parties in that house. He himself was for a complete change in the corn-laws-the right hon. baronet had told them they were not to expect it. He was for the ballot-the right hon. baronet had said, distinctly, that he repudiated the ballot. He was for progressive reform-the right hon. baronet said, they were not to look to him for it. [Here sir J. Graham interposed and stated, that he

was for progressive reform.] Yes; (continued Mr. Ward) that was according to the right hon. baronet's own version of reform, which was similar to that of the noble lord, the member for Northampton, who was gravitating towards those on the opposition benches, and the "progressive reforms" of both, meant "nominal reform" without any progress at all.

Talk of schisms and divisions (proceeded the hon. gentleman) on his side of the house, they were nothing like those on the side of the opposition, which were much more deeply seated-they were all founded on a religious basis, and that was the worst basis of all. His explanation of that fact was, that when they came to matters of conscience, the judgment was overruled, and there was no option left. There were no errors greater in the history of the human race than those connected with religion which bore upon politics.

Lord Stanley, in the course of a most eloquent and energetic speech, wished to know on what ground it was, that confidence was about to be voted that night. It was not a confidence in the firmness-it was not a confidence in the principles of the government -but it was a confidence entertained by those who were wedded to extreme opinions, that step by step, and bit by bit, and inch by inch, they would be driven from one position to the other in the course of "progressive reform," until they would only stop at the abolition of all form of government. He would give them an illustration of this confidence. He hoped he should not offend the hon. and learned member for Dublin by recurring to a speech made by him. In 1836, (con

tinued lord Stanley) this friend and ally of government said, in a speech delivered in Dublin, "I am for a reform of the House of Lords, and as a means of obtaining that end, I am for universal suffrage. I am for the ballot and doing away with property qualification. I am for the Whigs, although they don't go the whole way; but, when I get them to a certain point, I will bring them the rest of the way with me." So said the hon. and learned member for Dublin, and had any member of the ministry stepped forward in the discussion, and declared, "Here are our principles; so far we are ready to go as a government, but any ulterior change we will resist to the utmost of our power?" Not one.

In

Now he (lord Stanley) wanted to know of what party the present administration commanded the confidence? He need not ask if it had the confidence of his side. the sense in which he used the word he thought he might safely ask, if it had the confidence of the other? Had the ministers the confidence of the landed interest? Had they the confidence of the advocates of a free trade in corn? Had they the confidence of the clergy? [Loud laughter.] That shout was the answer-the proposition was too monstrous to be heard of. Had the ministers the confidence of the constituencies of England? [Loud cheers.] The answer to that cheer was the representatives of England. It was admitted a majority of the representatives of this part of the United Kingdom did not give their confidence to her majesty's government. But (proceeded the noble lord) the ministry declared they had the confidence of Ireland. Now, had they the