thing, and the prospect of returning to their friends and associates, reconciles offenders to it, so that in fact they consider it no punishment, and when this sentence is passed on men, they frequently say, "Thank you, my Lord." Indeed this is a common expression, used every session by prisoners when sentenced to seven years transportation.

Have you any particular observations to make on the offences of stealing in shops, and privately stealing in dwelling-houses? -I have; the stealing in a dwelling-house above the value of 40s. and privately stealing in a shop to the value of 5s. is capital; and though I have frequently been present where the evidence has in my mind amounted to demonstration, and it has struck me that many of the articles were of such value as to imperiously call upon the jury for a verdict of guilty, they have, from motives of compassion, given a verdict contrary to such evidence, by reducing the value of the article stolen so low as to lessen the offence to grand larceny.

What are the offences in which

you think there is neither a general reluctance to prosecute nor to convict?-Murder, arson, burglary, but not in its extended sense, such as breaking a pane of glass or lifting a latch, but where it is committed by a professed house-breaker, who breaks into a house in the middle of the night highway robbery accompanied with violence, cutting and other offences under lord Ellenborough's Act, where it is the clear intent of the offender to

commit murder, but the interpo

sition of Divine providence, or accident, only prevents its accomplishment.

Do you not think that the offenders who have the least fear of death are the most dissolute and idle?-Certainly they are.

And therefore the most likely to feel confinement and hard labour very much?-Certainly; I believe it would be felt by them as the greatest punishment that could be inflicted.

Have you made any observation with respect to the expense and trouble that might be saved to prosecutors by trying accessaries after the fact in the same county with the principals ?—I have; some years ago an act of parliament was passed to enable the prosecutor to try the accessary before the fact in the same county with the principal; this act has been found extremely useful; but it appears to me, that it would very much facilitate the purposes of justice if the accessary after the fact were also to be liable to be tried with the principal; because prosecutors after convicting the principal in one county, are now frequently put to very great expense in being obliged to go to another county to prosecute the receiver, and have all the chances of a failure of justice in losing their witnesses by death or other accidental

causes.

Can you state the average number of persons for whom you have been professionally engaged yearly, at the Old Bailey?-I cannot with certainty, but on a moderate computation, I should think one hundred prisoners yearly; and during my experi

ence

ence at the Old Bailey, I have had personal communication with two thousand or more prisoners. Latterly you have been employed in many prosecutions also? -I have.

Have you not also had frequent opportunities of observing the feelings of prosecutors and of prisoners ?-Certainly; for the last eight years my business for prosecutions has been progressively increasing.

But when you were employed professionally for the prisoners, had not you an opportunity of observing the feelings of prosecutors also?-Certainly; from attending the examinations, I had an opportunity of observing the wishes and feelings of prose

cutors.

Are the committee to understand you as stating, that you consider capital punishments to be efficacious only in those cases where the general feelings of the public go along with them?Certainly; the thieves observe the sympathy of the public, and it seems to console them, and they appear less concerned than those who witness their sentence; I have been present on very many occasions when the sentence of death has been passed, and the criminals have been far less affected than the auditors.

De you think that the general feeling goes along with the infliction of the punishment of death, in the cases of crime unaccompanied with violence ?-Certain ly it does not.

Do you conceive that the infliction of the punishment of death, in those cases, tends rather to excite the public feeling

against the criminal laws?—No doubt it does; there are, I believe, very few advocates for the generality of the present capital punishments.

Do you mean to apply that observation to those who have had the most experience of the effect of those capital punishments?-I should think I might safely so apply it.

REPORT ON GAOLS.

S. Hoare, jun. esq. examined. You are a visitor of the Refuge for the Destitute?—I am.

Does your acquaintance with that establishment enable you to state what ought to be the provision with respect to boys in different gaols?-In the different prisons I have visited, the reformation of the boys is generally considered as hopeless; in the Refuge we generally succeed; therefore, I think that the system pursued there might be adopted with great probability of success in our prisons and penitentiaries.

Will you state to the committee what that system is; does it apply particularly to boys?— In the male refuge, chiefly to boys; there are some men among them, though but few in proportion.

Have the goodness to state the plan adopted in that establishment?-They are in some measure classed; constantly employed; their religious instruction, as well as their general education, is attended to; and improper association is very much prevented.

In what does that classification consist? The generality of objects admitted are lads discharged from prison, recommended by the judges or magistrates; on their first reception they are placed in the wood-shed, for no previous instruction is required for this employment; and we conceive that idleness is the source of most crimes. Whilst there, we observe their different dispositions and inclinations, and employ them afterwards according to their own wishes, in tayloring, shoemaking, or basketmaking.

Have you any means of ascertaining the characters of the boys before they come in?-Most of the children, before their admission, have been in different prisons. We have very few indeed who have not been criminals.

They are almost all criminals? -Many are recommended to the institution by the judges, some by the magistrates; some of them are so very young, that it would be unreasonable to inflict upon them the punishment annexed by

law to their offences.

Will you proceed to state how they are classified?-They are divided into four classes; shoemakers, taylors, woodcutters and basket-makers. The classifica tion is not so perfect as I think desirable; but the funds of the society are very low, and we are obliged to do the best we can; but having several trusty persons continually with the children, they are prevented in great measure from contaminating each other.

State the manner in which they perform their work?-The master

taylor is in the centre of the room, with the children under his tuition both in sight and hearing; the assistant taylors are on the boards, with the lads arranged around them; nothing can pass without being over-heard.

The committee will thank you to state what are the numbers in each class?-There are twentythree taylors, with three superintendents, a master and two assistants.

Each of whom takes a certain number?-Yes; whilst the master superintends and cuts out for them all.

Please to go on with the other trades ?-The shoemakers are arranged in nearly the same way.

State the numbers ?-Twentyfour; the master cuts out and prepares the work. I believe there are about eight basketmakers. The rest of the objects are employed in the wood-yard, in the service of the house, cooking, cleaning, &c. &c.

Under what superintendence are the whole?-A chaplain, a superintendent, a master taylor with two assistants, a master shoemaker with two, and a basket-maker. Three of the assistants were criminals, one under sentence of death; were educated in the establishment, left it, and supported themselves respectably and with unblemished characters; but hearing of vacancies in the asylum, they applied for the situations and were gladly received.

Of what description of character are the other superintendents? Persons selected by the committee as suitable for the employment. In the wood-shed I

believe

believe the master of the establishment superintends.

How many basket-makers are there?-Not more than eight, who are instructed and inspected by one master. We do not wish to press the manufacture of baskets, as that work can be done by the blind, with whom we are unwilling to interfere.

Are the assistants paid?Yes; when I speak of assistants, I mean those officers who receive salaries.

How many wood-cutters did you mention?-About three and twenty.

How many superintendents? -I do not think there is a paid superintendent in that department; one of the objects superintends; but the master is continually in and out, and the clerk who keeps the accounts of the establishment assists.

No one is paid in that department?—No.

You say there are eighty objects in the whole?-Eighty is the limit, but the number varies.

In what way do they take their relaxation?-They have a playground at the back of the pre

mises.

Is that common for all?-Yes, common to all; but the officers superintend the whole of the time they are there; they are never left without inspection.

Are the whole of the superintendents with them, or only some? -Some of the masters; they take the duty alternately.

Have you any species of hard labour?-Wood-cutting we consider to be hard labour; we purchase ship timber, cut it into proper lengths, and bind it in

parcels, for kindling. This employment is also carried on in the temporary refuge, a branch of the establishment.

Is that given in consequence of any refractory conduct? There the objects do not remain sufficiently long to enable us to instruct them in a trade; they bruise oyster shells, or cut wood; at the present moment they are cutting some very hard wood which has been received from Botany Bay.

The committee would be glad to know to what description of persons you give that hard labour: how do you regulate the labour?-In the temporary refuge, which is attached to the other, the same labour is shared by all; we do not expect much emolument from it; but we consider idleness the bane, and we apply labour as the antidote.

What is the one kind of labour in which they are employed?Bruising oyster shells, sawing wood, or any thing we can procure for them to do..

The number of eighty which you have stated is exclusive of those in the temporary refuge? -Yes, exclusive of the thirtyfive in the temporary refuge; and we find it very difficult to keep the numbers within the limits.

Is sawing done by the double saw?-In the permanent refuge it is done by a circular saw; in the temporary, by a double saw.

Are they ever removed from the one to the other?-In some instances they are, but it is not the general practice; the proper objects of admission to the temporary refuge are those for

whom

whom we can see a probability of reconciliation to their friends; sometimes we assist in passing them to their parish, sometimes supply them with tools, for on their discharge from prison they are usually wholly destitute.

What is the utmost extent of time you keep them for?-I think some of them have been there three months.

Do you ever keep them there as long as six months?—The institution has not been in operation longer than nine months. In visiting the prisons, we find many comparatively respectable individuals, who, when the term of their imprisonment is expired, are without characters, without the means of procuring a meal for the day, and are almost necessitated to return to the commission of crime for the purpose of procuring a night's lodg. ing. From Newgate I believe prisoners are sometimes discharged soon after the punishment of whipping, with their backs still sore. When we see a deserving object of this description, we give him an order of admission to the temporary refuge, that it may not be from necessity if he returns to his vicious practices.

When you said three months, it only referred to the temporary refuge? No, only to the temporary refuge; in the permanent refuge we are very sorry to part with them in less time than two years at least.

What regulates the time that any one is kept with you?-As soon as we judge them to be confirmed in good habits, and have an opportunity of placing

them out safely, we are glad to dispose of them.

Have you any legal power to detain them?-No; we have no legal power to detain them.

Do they, in point of fact, often leave you?-No.

You say one mode of punishment is to send them to the wood-yard from their profession? -Yes; from the trade of which they are acquiring the knowledge.

Upon an average, how many do you suppose you may have in the temporary refuge? We are governed by the size of the building; the medical attendant stated, that our premises would not accommodate more than thirty without endangering health; but we cannot always confine ourselves to that number; the cases are frequently so extremely urgent that we often exceed that limit.

Have you more applications than you can receive?-We have. Which you are prevented from receiving for want of funds and room?-I never attended a committee when we did not reject one case, and sometimes five or six, and those of urgent necessity. It is an extremely painful task to refuse the applications, because if the objects are admitted within the establishment, there is every reasonable hope that they will be restored to society as respectable members; and if they are turned adrift, their characters being gone they have no alternative, but return again to their vicious practices and associates.

Could you give the committee generally some idea, during the time of the existence of this in

stitution,